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Living Water's 990 filings with the IRS

Discussion on things related to LW, WotM, Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron, and Tony Miano

Re: Living Water's 2011 990 filings with the IRS

Postby rufustfirefly » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:22 am

So, simplify it; were they in the red?
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Re: Living Water's 2011 990 filings with the IRS

Postby AD6LR » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:25 am

They are operating at a loss, yes.
A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver....
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Re: Living Water's 2011 990 filings with the IRS

Postby BathTub » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:37 am

Well ray didn't give himself a payrise, income is up a little, but just about everything else was down.
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Re: Living Water's 2011 990 filings with the IRS

Postby Jessica » Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:13 pm

Excuse me, I know very little about business, but don't investors want a real return for their investment? I mean, you might as well pour money down the drain if you don't want to see a result.
And* I'm trying to be objectively fair here, as a business Living Waters is a failure. 180 is desperately being marketed and will not light up the minds of the citizens of the US.They don't even have the souls to show for it. I've only done a cursory reading but a lot of their income seems to come from donations, ie the poor ordinary sods opening their purses and wallets because they believe they are giving to further a good cause. I know we're dealing with a fundamentalist Christian mindset, but human beings aren't stupid. They want a return on their investment even if it's giving to a charity. They are not going to be put off by the mindless cheerful optimism that is Mr Ray Comfort.They want to see results.
OK Comfort hasn't increased his own wage but if the investors keep seeing debacles like that European trip and the 180 advertising which they paid for and which are not getting results they are going to think twice about what to do with their hard-earned.

Starting a sentence with 'And'! My old English teach Miss Jones will have me taken out and shot.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?Then he is not omnipotent.Is he able, but not willing?Then he is malevolent.Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? (Epicurus circa:300 BC)
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Re: Living Water's 2011 990 filings with the IRS

Postby vms » Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:37 pm

Jessica wrote:Excuse me, I know very little about business, but don't investors want a real return for their investment?

I may get some of the terminology wrong but I'm sure someone will correct it.

Living Waters isn't considered a regular business but a non-profit organization. So there are no investors but donators who contribute money. Ray makes his pitch for more money in various ways and people send in money and forget about it.

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.--Winston Churchill

The greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.--H. Jackson Brown, Jr.
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Re: Living Water's 2011 990 filings with the IRS

Postby zilch » Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:53 pm

Jessica wrote:Starting a sentence with 'And'! My old English teach Miss Jones will have me taken out and shot.

Over my dead body. But come to think of it, she would probably shoot me for that sentence fragment.

While I applaud adherence to grammar that renders sentences clear, adhering to tradition merely for the sake of tradition is a losing battle. Languages evolve. And starting a sentence with "and" is perfectly understandable. Fragments too. Whatever works. No?
You were born. And so you're free. So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson
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Re: Living Water's 2011 990 filings with the IRS

Postby Jessica » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:44 pm

zilch, you are right, and I know you are right, but to be honest, I wouldn't like to tell Miss Jones that!
She was only my height (and I am very little) but she was a terror. Male sixth formers a foot taller and growing beards and physically and legally capable of reproducing used to dread having to face her scathing criticism.
It was definitely her way or the highway. There was no dissent allowed. Now I think about it, she was a bit like a Creationist only for the English language. In her way, words were created to remain unchanging, you can't change one set of words into another, and if you tried you would be slapped down so hard with sarcasm you wouldn't lift your head up again.
That was teaching in the 1960s/1970s. the teacher was always right, even when they were wrong.
I'm sure there are people with greying hair, grown up families and successful in their lives who still recoil in horror when her name is mentioned.

vms, you put:

Living Waters isn't considered a regular business but a non-profit organization. So there are no investors but donators who contribute money. Ray makes his pitch for more money in various ways and people send in money and forget about it.


So it's a bit like a charity. OK. Suppose you came across a charity that, I don't know, promised to provide schooling for underprivileged children. Because you believed every child deserved schooling you gave them money generously.
Time went by. This sent out brochures, they lobbied councils, they put out videos describing how wonderful it would be when these children were finally in the classroom. They asked for more money.
After a while, you would start to see it was all slick presentation and no results. There were no schools being built, no children educated. But keep sending money. We are working on your behalf to see every child is schooled.
The optimism and certainty of the mail shots or videos were in inverse proportion to the number of children schooled.
Wouldn't anyone start wondering exactly why they had to keep sending money when all it seemed to be spent on was trips abroad to convince people to give to help children go to school or vehicles for advertising schooling for all children?
I know I'm not being at all fair and not playing the game but if I was giving my hard-earned to a charity I could not just let it go. I would have to see results. After all, if you give to a cause you believe you want to see that cause get results. The Living Waters charity is getting no results.
That's my take on it, anyhow.
But, I forget. I apologies. We're dealing with people who are willing to give money for intangibles. Like inspiring others who already believe what you believe to either slightly modify their beliefs or tell others about their beliefs. Like planting a word seed into someone's soul. No one sees it, but it is just possible it might grow and develop. You might not see or hear or feel it or be aware of it in any manner, shape or form. But it is possible. Send us more money and you will be helping us tell more people to believe a certain thing!
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?Then he is not omnipotent.Is he able, but not willing?Then he is malevolent.Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? (Epicurus circa:300 BC)
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Re: Living Water's 2011 990 filings with the IRS

Postby vms » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:05 pm

Jessica wrote:But, I forget. I apologies. We're dealing with people who are willing to give money for intangibles. Like planting a word seed into someone's soul. No one sees it, but it is just possible it might grow and develop. You might not see or hear or feel it or be aware of it in any manner, shape or form. But it is possible. Send us more money!

You got it Jessica. That line in his current blog post:

So we don’t know how many truly came to Christ because we don’t have access to the book of Life. That means that the European trip was very successful--because we had the privilege of planting the seed of the Word of God into the hearts of many people, and His Word cannot return void.

it not only convinces LW it is successful, it's also for Ray's gullible followers.
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.--Winston Churchill

The greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.--H. Jackson Brown, Jr.
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Re: Living Water's 2011 990 filings with the IRS

Postby theBlackSwan » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:19 pm

So, based on this info, and just the general trend that we see from LW, will it last into the upcoming future, and how long?

I can't imagine it going past 2015 without some major hiccups. They have no major projects anymore. They're just trying to ride the coattails of an already-failed venture.
I haven't changed this in close to four years now. Let's be honest, this is just a filler until I think of something better.
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