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Last of Chapter Two

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Last of Chapter Two

Postby Milo » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:44 pm

23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.


In case anyone wants to object that corn did not grow in the Middle East, corn is another word for grain.
Interesting detail here- the disciples are the ones getting in trouble. Jesus is not participating in the sabbath day plucking.

24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?


Apparently, Pharisees hang out in the farm fields. They're everywhere!

25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.


This is the passage to which Jesus refers:

1 Samuel 21

1 Then came David to Nob to Ahimelech the priest: and Ahimelech was afraid at the meeting of David, and said unto him, Why art thou alone, and no man with thee?
2 And David said unto Ahimelech the priest, The king hath commanded me a business, and hath said unto me, Let no man know any thing of the business whereabout I send thee, and what I have commanded thee: and I have appointed my servants to such and such a place.
3Now therefore what is under thine hand? give me five loaves of bread in mine hand, or what there is present.
4 And the priest answered David, and said, There is no common bread under mine hand, but there is hallowed bread; if the young men have kept themselves at least from women.
5 And David answered the priest, and said unto him, Of a truth women have been kept from us about these three days, since I came out, and the vessels of the young men are holy, and the bread is in a manner common, yea, though it were sanctified this day in the vessel.
6 So the priest gave him hallowed bread: for there was no bread there but the shewbread, that was taken from before the LORD, to put hot bread in the day when it was taken away.


David is away on a secret mission. He goes to Ahimelech the priest- Ahimelech is suprised to see David alone. David explains the need for secrecy then asks for some bread. The only bread available is the bread that is consecrated and kept at the temple. "Shewbread" is made with a special recipe and after a week on the table of the Lord is replaced with new loaves and the old eaten by the priests. Normally, it is not eaten by lay people but the priest seems to have no problem giving the bread to David and his men as long as they have not had sex recently.

How this incident reflects on the situation of Jesus and his disciples is unclear. David wasn't breaking the sabbath, he was taking bread that was normally reserved for the priests, but with the priest's approval.

There is the Abiathar/Ahimelech controversy over whether this constitutes a biblical error or not. It probably isn't an error but I am not getting into that discussion. Feel free to discuss amongst yourselves! It is also claimed that Jesus made a mistake when he said "they that were with him" when scripture says David was alone. But is is plain that David's men are nearby and David is only alone in the temple.

David asks for five loaves and later Jesus will feed thousands with five loaves.
Stop doubting and beleive Milo. Then everything will make sense.
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Re: Last of Chapter Two

Postby E-lad » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:05 pm

This is very cornfusing.
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Re: Last of Chapter Two

Postby zilch » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:43 am

There is the Abiathar/Ahimelech controversy over whether this constitutes a biblical error or not. It probably isn't an error but I am not getting into that discussion. Feel free to discuss amongst yourselves!

This is the very error that got Bart Ehrman to thinking about Biblical inerrancy. I just finished reading his Misquoting Jesus (highly recommended). Ehrman relates in the Introduction that he was a fiery fundamentalist, until he got back a paper he'd turned in, which had proposed a rather farfetched explanation for the confusion about Abiathar/Ahimelech, with a note from his teacher saying, "perhaps Mark simply made a mistake". Sometimes all it takes is one "perhaps" to open the floodgates.
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Re: Last of Chapter Two

Postby BeamStalk » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:13 pm

zilch wrote:
There is the Abiathar/Ahimelech controversy over whether this constitutes a biblical error or not. It probably isn't an error but I am not getting into that discussion. Feel free to discuss amongst yourselves!

This is the very error that got Bart Ehrman to thinking about Biblical inerrancy. I just finished reading his Misquoting Jesus (highly recommended). Ehrman relates in the Introduction that he was a fiery fundamentalist, until he got back a paper he'd turned in, which had proposed a rather farfetched explanation for the confusion about Abiathar/Ahimelech, with a note from his teacher saying, "perhaps Mark simply made a mistake". Sometimes all it takes is one "perhaps" to open the floodgates.


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Re: Last of Chapter Two

Postby Tilia » Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:16 pm

27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:


I like this sentence. If that's the case for one commandment, why not for the others?

The ten commandments are meant to guide and help people to live together peacefully. Not to condemn them.
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Re: Last of Chapter Two

Postby zilch » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:49 am

Tilia wrote:
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:


I like this sentence. If that's the case for one commandment, why not for the others?

The ten commandments are meant to guide and help people to live together peacefully. Not to condemn them.


I agree, tilia, at least when I'm feeling gutmütig towards the authors of the Bible. Another beispiel: in Corinthians 2:6, when the gegensatz between the letter of the law and the spirit is mentioned. Imho, that's realism breaking out, in the form of an admission that the law is just an imperfect human attempt to define what really matters. Compare Lao-Tse: the Tao that can be described is not the true Tao.
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Re: Last of Chapter Two

Postby Chaplain Entrekin » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:23 pm

It is very interesting to consider Jesus' words in v27
"The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."

Many religious people view keeping the sabbath (the 4th commandment) as a very legalistic and limiting command. When we look at the command in Deuteronomy 5:12ff, we see that the context of keeping the sabbath is not so much about us not working, but us not making other people work. It is an opportunity to be generous to them. Later chapters of Deuteronomy serve as practical and theological application of the commandments presented in chapter 5. Chapters 15 and 16 cover the 4th commandment. Ch 15 is about the sabbatical year. Again, the context seems to suggest that the idea of a sabbath is not a legalistic cessation of activity, but an opportunity, in light of God's generosity, to be generous to others.

Understanding this view of the 4th commandment, we can hear Jesus' words in v27 as not saying,

'Chill out guys, sabbath was meant for us."

but rather,

"The sabbath is meant to be a perpetual reminder of God's generosity to us and an opportunity for us to be generous to each other. That is why no one should get worked up about the fact that David and his men ate the showbread, or that my disciples are eating some grain from the edge of this field."

The perpetual reminder of the cost of God's generosity in bringing the Hebrews out of slavery is noted at the end of DT Ch 15, the sacrifice of a blemish-free first born male animal. Jesus himself would go on to fully replace that yearly sacrifice in his own death.

- Chap
I find your lack of faith...disturbing. -Darth Vader
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Re: Last of Chapter Two

Postby E-lad » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:06 pm

Yes, indeed. That is one way to verse hop and come up with a suitable meaning to the whole thing. And to be sure, I have been in no mood lately to argue theology, but there was no work done at all (Ex. 20: 10; Lev. 23: 3; Jer. 17:21-22). No watering the lawn, no working in the yard, no hobbies, no surfing, no fixing flat tires, etc. By law if a person did not stop all types of activity in honor of the Sabbath, he was breaking the law. In Numbers 15:32-36 a man was caught collecting sticks on the Sabbath, and he received a rock concert from the people he knew.

And I have heard a good three or four explanations for both sides. As a kid, the grocery stores were not open on Sunday in my town, and if you can mitigate #4, why not the others?

I will submit that since our society has moved on past that archaic commandment, we need to justify breaking it, just like so many of the 603 commandments in the OT.
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Re: Last of Chapter Two

Postby Chaplain Entrekin » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:07 am

E-lad,

You are absolutely right. No work was to be done and God took/takes this command, as well as the others, very seriously. I am in no way trying to tone down the command, or "verse hop," to come up with a more palatable interpretation. All I am trying to point out is that the Pharisees, in complaining to Jesus about the disciples, demonstrate that they had remembered the rule, but not the reason.

Jesus does not reinterpret or soften the laws demands, but exposes the ungenerous-ness, or stinginess, of the Pharisees' hearts. When God's rules are removed from the context of his relationship, you are left with the cold religion of the Pharisees, who are sadly still around today.

Chap
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