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Lessons in biblical archaeology

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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby E-lad » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:09 am

Your answers clearly show that you have not one scintilla of understanding or willingness to address the issues.

Btw, it is well shown that wikipedia is at least as error free as the encyclopaedia Britannica and they show the citations to prove it.
In case you didn't notice, almost all of wiki's articles show the citations for their articles. You are free to check them, unlike you, who makes arguments out of thin air.

Get with the fucking program.
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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby shadowmouse » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:34 am

pi slipped his restraints again...

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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby Chris » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:29 am

pUREiNTENT wrote:
Chris wrote:Let's deal with your claims one at a time shall we PI?


Yes... let us deal with your claims as well.

Fine with me.

Since the hittite spies were supposed to report on any weakening of Egyptian military strength such a non-report was NOT a common occurence. You just pulled that 'fact' out or your arse.


How do you know that Hittite spies were supposed to do any of what you claim? Did you read about this from ancient texts and accept it as fact? Ancient historical documents? Did somebody that is alive today travel back in time to figure all this out? Or was it passed down by oration until written down more recently? And you believe this but don't believe over 60 texts written by around 40 authors? Wow... way to accept that which supports your argument and deny that which doesn't.

Who ordered this word salad? :lol:
I'll answer the bits that are relevant.
How do we know what the spies were supposed to report? Because of what their reports contained boyo.

How are we able to know this? By reading the ancient texts and comparing them to what is already known about ancient Egypt.


Problem 3: The plagues.
Once again if the plagues actually happened then the Egyptian economy would have been ruined. Since this didn't happen then we may deduce that there were no biblical plagues.


How do you know this? Did today's economists travel back in time to determine what the economy was like back then and they know that these plagues would have wiped out the economy of Egypt? Or are they presupposing based on how economy works today and pitting that against similar plagues like we have today? Oh yeah... there aren't any.

An agrarian economy depends upon its production of crops. Take away the production of crops and it's economy is ruined. That's just the way it is. Your question is similar to one asking 'if someone stabbed the victim through the heart how do you know the stabber killed the victim'? The answer to both is...'cause that's the way things work boyo.

First it is hardly conjecture to state the obvious. Ancient societies in general but Egypt in particular were agrarian. They relied upon the production of grain. Destroy that and you have severely disrupted their economy. Not only that but Egyptian religion would have been given a body blow by the death of the eldest child whose job in Egyptian society was to assure the well being of his parents in the next life. By killing off the eldest child it basically ensures the parents will starve or cease to exist in the next life according to Egyptian belief.

Next your site quotes copiously from a papyrus and asserts that it comes from the time of the exodus. Garbage!


Hello, Kettle... you're black!!! All of your assumptions are based on artifacts and texts from the past, yet you condemn others that do the same.

Boy talk about a strawman argument.
1) The first thing that is done in order to interpret a text is to put it into its historical context. Your 'experts' were not able to do that therefore they were unable to understand an Egyptian text.
2) When I depend upon Egyptian texts, Hittite texts, relics that have been discovered as well as the archaeological record in general then I'm just making assumptions? Projecting much? Let me put it this way. If you got sick where would you go - to a doctor or a plumber? So if we are talking about archaeological evidence to whom do we go - an archaeologist or an adventurer and sailor? You know as well as I that the plumber in matters medical & the adventurer in matters archaeological may be well meaning but their opinion means next to nothing.

If on the other hand your diatribe given above was another way of asking how do we know that Egypt was an agrarian civilization that's easy to answer - size of the number of people dedicated to raising crops. When the vast majority of a population -we're talking 90%+ here - are involved with growing crops then you have an agrarian civilization. The word 'agrarian civilisation' may be defined as 'a culture or community in which agriculture is the primary means of subsistence; an economy that relies heavily on agricultural production'. Since ancient Egypt meets that definition then it is an agrarian civilization. See how easy that was?


Allow me to quote wikipedia here... The papyrus itself (Papyrus Leiden I 344) is a copy made during the New Kingdom of Egypt.[1] The dating of the original composition of the poem is disputed, but several scholars have suggested a date between the late 6th dynasty and the Second Intermediate Period (ca. 1850 BCE-1600 BCE),[4] and appears to describe how the Hyksos took over Egypt.[5] [6] The theme of this work had previously been taken either as a lament inspired by the supposed chaos of the First Intermediate Period,[5] or as a plea to Pepi II Neferkare depicting the fall of the Old Kingdom.

Notice two points?
1) It was written long before the exodus according to several scholars.
2) It describes an earlier period and NOT the exodus.
3) Finally I haven't written my doctoral dissertation but I studied under those who have concerning Egypt, especially during the New Kingdom period.


LOL... Wikipedia... kind of like everything the internet says is true...

Straw man number two. Would you like me to quote from a university site? Let me guess your reaction...Lol atheistic uni site. :lol:
Or would you prefer some modern texts which I used in my archaeology theses?
Try :
1) Art and Architecture of Ancient Egypt.
2) Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology.
3) Larousse Encyclopedia of Ancient & Medieval History.
4) Cult of the Gods: Religion in Ancient Egypt

Or would you prefer lighter reading?
Like:
5) It Ain't Necessarily so.
6) Secrets of the Bible [which is a publication of Archaeology Magazine]
or
7) Testament

But let me make this perfectly clear. It's not just ancient texts which are relied on. Where a claim is made in a text it is compared to what we know from the archaeological record. If the record supports the texts then the text is held as credible. The archaeological record shows that Ramesses II undertook a massive building program during the time that his economy should have been in ruins. To point out the blindingly obvious you can't undertake a building program if you're broke. What's the evidence for this? Not only the ancient texts [from Egypt and its neighbors] but repairs of previous tombs, temples erected or extended and so on during this period. You can call all of that 'assumptions if you like but by archaeologists this is known as evidence.

You on the other hand have asserted that God hid evidence with no evidence [in the bible or elsewhere] to back it up.


I could keep going, but this is tiresome and offers no end in site. I would, however, suggest that you stop arguing that which you do yourself.

:lol: :lol: That was a good one. Oh you're serious?

LOL

Next time try using evidence and not merely dismissing the evidence provided which opposes your assumptions.
Also it should be asked what evidence would you accept that showed the bible in error? Don't worry I won't hold my breath waiting for an answer.
Last edited by Chris on Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby Chris » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:46 am

shadowmouse wrote:pi slipped his restraints again...

Image


Oh no. [pushes the alarm]

TROLL IN THE DUNGEON>
TROLL IN THE DUNGEON
If perchance I have offended, think but this, and all is mended, that you have but slumbered here, while a vision did appear. A Midsummer Night's Dream
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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby Chris » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:01 am

zilch wrote:Thanks for straightening me out, Chris. I'm sure there are some outright historical mistakes in the Bible, too, not even including the magic stuff. But nemesis's point remains: even if all the historical, nonmagical stuff were true, that would not be any sort of evidence for the truth of the God claims.


You're very welcome. Nemesis & yourself are both quite correct. Take Akhenaten for example. Let's say for arguments sake that the Aten existed and spoke regularly to Akhenaten. How would archaeologists ever know? All they'd ever be able to show is that Akhenaten did X not that the Aten told him too.

Even if the Aten took a personal hand and destroyed cities on His lonesome all an archaeologist could say was that the destruction of the city seems inexplicable.
Science can NEVER provide evidence for a miracle since they would have to go from the effect to the most likely cause. Since if it's an action of God then we are dealing with a miracle then it can NEVER be the most likely cause.
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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby Chris » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:55 am

Oh PI since you objected so much to my quote from wiki let's do it the other way:
Ipuwer texts

Translated by R. B. Parkinson, The Tale of Sinuhe and Other Ancient Egyptian Poems. Oxford World's Classics, 1999.

Also translated by Roland Enmarch: The Dialogue of Ipuwer and the Lord of All

Dating of the text: Van Seters J. "A date for the "Admonitions" in the second intermediate Period". The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 1964;50:13-23.

What text describes:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3 ... 1672155211

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/6 ... 1672155211

Satisfied or would you like some more?
If perchance I have offended, think but this, and all is mended, that you have but slumbered here, while a vision did appear. A Midsummer Night's Dream
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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby IntellectualNinja » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:23 pm

E-lad wrote:Your answers clearly show that you have not one scintilla of understanding or willingness to address the issues.

Btw, it is well shown that wikipedia is at least as error free as the encyclopaedia Britannica and they show the citations to prove it.
In case you didn't notice, almost all of wiki's articles show the citations for their articles. You are free to check them, unlike you, who makes arguments out of thin air.

Get with the fucking program.


Well, the problem with Wikipedia isn't in its accuracy. Wikipedia is accurate and a great starting point for research. The reason why you don't want to use it in academia is because some of the articles can be copy-pasted from other sources. In other words, you can accidentally plagiarize if you use Wikipedia which can be grounds for expulsion.

It amazes me how so much of the internet and the software people use everyday is based on open source projects. People have immense trust in these open-source powered devices. However, when it comes to an open source project that might undermine some of their beliefs, suddenly they distrust open source.
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