Haley, I Am In Hate With You

[Morgaine]

It's come to this.

Everyone, meet HaleyGirl16. Her profile makes my eyes and my heart hurt, and not just because of the horrific green-on-purple-on-green combo:

What I believe (feel free to ask about any of these):
The Bible is the literal Word of God.
Salvation by grace thru faith alone
JESUS NAME baptism of believers (Acts 2:38)
Filling with the Holy Ghost AFTER salvation
Speaking in tongues
Second Physical Coming of Christ
I am Pro Life
I'm Anti Homosexuality NOT Anti Homosexual or a homophobe
Anything else about my beliefs you wanna know just ask me

This girl has said, apparently with a straight face, that homosexuality was comparable to pedophilia and puppy raping and corpse banging. Recently, it's gotten to the point were everything I type I have to erase and come back to later because it's filled with swear words and venom.

Here's what's broken it a bit. There was more, but this was the main thing:

Also, keep your religion away from my friends and family, thanks. I doubt you'd appreciate it if Jews tried to make it illegal to eat pork, or Hindus tried to force a caste system into the legal system, so why on earth do you think it's okay to force this discriminatory crap down the throats of every non-religious (Or liberal-religious) person in America? You don't like gay marriage? Fine, don't get one. But don't take away legal benefits just because you think homosexuality is morally comparable to pedophilia (which is utterly stupid and ridiculous and wrong anyway).

Chloe this is a Christian forum. You don't have to like it, but expect for religion to be a major reason as to why people agree or disagree with homosexuality.

Also, please watch what you say in your posts. You can disagree all you'd like, but bashing what others believe is not allowed. According the the Bible, it is comparable to pedophilia. Same as sex with animals is comparable to pedophilia. Again, you are on a Christian forum. You can disagree with Christian beliefs all you want to, but you're not allowed to bash, like you came dangerously close to doing in this post.

Ah, I see. You saying that me, my uncle, my best friend, and my cousin might as well be child molesters is fine, Christian-like in fact, but me taking exception to that is bashing your religion. Right.

I'm not bashing Christianity. I'm taking (completely valid) offense to the idea that because my friends, family and I have (in my case purely romantic, in the others both romantic and sexual) feelings towards people of the same gender, we may as well be taking sexual advantage of children. That's a horrific way to think, and the fact that you refuse to acknowledge that disgusts me. And just like it's your right to say such horrible things about people you don't even know, it's my right to stand up and say that's an awful thing to do. And as you clearly have no respect for me or my beliefs or those I hold dear (how could you? We might as well be child molesters, after all), why on earth should I show you or your beliefs an iota of respect? What have you done to deserve that? Other can compare me to baby molesters and puppy rapers, I mean.

If you can sit back on your computer and say I may as well be molesting a child every time I think the girl next to me looks pretty, I can stand up and say that that is a horrible way to think. And if that's bashing Christianity, I think you seriously need to reevaluate your religious beliefs.

This previous statement got through, despite my being certain that it wouldn't. The mod who let it through had this to say in the main thread:

Ah, I see. You saying that me, my uncle, my best friend, and my cousin might as well be child molesters is fine, Christian-like in fact, but me taking exception to that is bashing your religion. Right.

I'm not bashing Christianity. I'm taking (completely valid) offense to the idea that because my friends, family and I have (in my case purely romantic, in the others both romantic and sexual) feelings towards people of the same gender, we may as well be taking sexual advantage of children. That's a horrific way to think.

Just fyi, I agree with this and I speak out often against Christians who equate Raping and murdering a child with lying twice. I've had multiple discussions with Christians on the topic and I don't want some people believing that this is actually a true belief in Christianity when it most certainly is not.

This was completely ignored by Haley until someone else brought it up.

Radical said "most Christians seems to describe marriage as simply being a means to have sex and babies..." No, we do view marriage as merely physical, we view sex (physical union) as a comsumation. Love is part of marriage, but not all of it. If mutual love is the only prerequisite to marriage, then marriage between fathers and daughters, mothers and sons, brothers and sisters, and three or more different adults should also be legalised, upon the condition that ‘they love each other’. Would you object to any of these arrangements?

Radical said "keep your religion away from my friends and family".

Do you believe that religion should never influence politics, and laws should only be decided by people?

Radical said, You don't like gay marriage? Fine, don't get one. But don't take away legal benefits just because you think homosexuality is morally comparable to pedophilia (which is utterly stupid and ridiculous and wrong anyway).

You dont like nuclear weapons? Dont own one. You don't like slavery? Dont own one. You dont like incestuous marriages? Dont get one. You dont like marriages to inanimate objects? Dont get one. Dont take away these benefits from me just because you think they are wrong.

If I said that there was nothing wrong with slavery, incest, and marrying inanimate objects, what would you appeal to to say that you are right and I am wrong?

THEN she responds. Not to me of course; R'hllor forbid she acknowledges me beyond accusing me of bashing her religion. She responds to Johnny Boy's last, utterly ridiculous comeback.

Thank you, thank you, and THANK you! I get so sick and tired of hearing the argument "If you don't like gay marriage don't get one! But don't take away my right!" That's lovely. Now going on that thought process, let's not dare try and stop Iran and North Korea from having nuclear weapons because they have a right. We'll allow fathers to marry there daughters and mothers to marry there sons because they want to. Why stop there? Let's allow old men and women to marry teenagers because they're in love. After all, they love each other and they want to right? Open every courthouse in the nation and let people marry rocks and puppies and inflatable dolls because they're in love and they should have a right to marry who or what they love right?

I get tired of people making it sound like Christians just don't like it, as if they have no basis. It's an abomination in the eyes of God. It's wrong. It's the equivalent to pedophilia, incest, necrophilia, bestiality, and other unacceptable relationships or sex acts. That's not Christians talking, those are Biblical comparisons. Be it a secular government or not, the nation is still influenced by religion. And because of that, many people in and out of the government hold to homosexuality being a perversion of how God set up sex and relationships to work. It's not just Christians saying it's icky. It's a belief that looks at nature and sees that most people want to be with one person of the opposite sex. That's the norm. That's accepted as healthy and the correct way to have a relationship, marriage, and sex. People (even non religious) see big problems in adults having sex with children, people having sex with family members, with corpses, with animals, with objects, and with people of the same sex.

Also, since I've heard the "it's found among the animals" argument before, I'd like to say that personally, I don't care if 2 male turtles go at each other. Or 2 female lions. Or 2 same sex monkeys or fish or birds or bugs or anything else. 2 big differences between us and animals, God created us above the animals and God gave us morals and standards. He didn't tell the turtles not to have homosexual sex. He told humans that it made him sick to see people have homosexual sex because that's not how he meant it to go. He didn't tell the lions not to get same sex marriage. He told humans that marriage is to be between one man and one woman. There are A LOT of things that we see in nature that are unacceptable for humans to do.

Birds push there babies out of nests in hopes that they won't land on there heads. In the human world, that's child abuse. Lions kill each other over a piece of meat. In human society, that's murder. Most animals have sex with a random partner every year and a female animal has off springs by several different mates. In human life the man and woman would both be labeled sexually promiscuous. And you can bet that if a mother threw her child out to fend for itself and then used the argument that "Birds do it so it's natural" the only thing saving her from jail would be an insanity plea. Just because it's found in the animals, doesn't mean it's ok for humans to do it too.

So yeah, for anyone else who wants to use the "Don't like it, don't do it" and "It's found in the animals" arguments, they are getting really old.

Nothing I write would get through. I just want to curl up and die because, really. You can't argue with these people. Because, to them, it makes perfect sense. They live in this little black-and-white fantasy world were this is good and that's evil because the Bible says so. And saying anything against this crap is officially against the rules.

[Morgaine]

Okay, I guess that's not how you quote.

[vms]

Fixed it.

[Godlesspanther2]

I have noticed several places on the internet in which people who have completely whacked-out ideas have used a very unpleasant text-background color combination. It makes it impossible to read without getting a headache.

Can you say "passive-aggressive?"

It does seem that persons such as Haley are too far gone and so indoctrinated that it is literally impossible to have any real communication with them. That may be true, however, I have come across ex-christians who say that they were, at one time, just like that. They would spout the same bullshit that they had been programmed to spout without thinking about it. Then something started to put a crack in that wall.

I do think that ex-believers are the biggest threat to the current believers. That is why they insist on that "never really was a xtian to begin with" lie. They stick to it like it's a life preserver even though there is not one atomic particle of evidence to back it up and tons of evidence against it.

Carl Sagan considered science to be the most precious thing we have. Haley lives in a world in which lies are the most precious things they have.

Sad -- just fucking sad.

[Morgaine]

My response.

Do you believe that religion should never influence politics, and laws should only be decided by people?

I believe that this is a secular nation, and that laws should therefore have purely secular meaning behind them.

You dont like nuclear weapons? Dont own one.

Well, yes... Exactly. Are you suggesting that we, as a country, should confiscate the weaponry of other sovereign nations? Or that nuclear or other forms of weaponry don't serve a purpose or are somehow comparable to a same-sex relationship? I personally don't see how this is remotely on the same level as a same-sex marriage/relationship.

You don't like slavery? Dont own one.

Do you disagree that there's a difference between owning a slave and marrying someone of the same sex? Do you consider a brutal slave owner to be the same as a loving same-sex couple? Your comparisons are bizarre.

You dont like incestuous marriages? Dont get one.

Incestuous marriage can lead to children born from that incest, which in turn can lead to an increased risk of hemophilia and other genetic and mental disorders.

You dont like marriages to inanimate objects? Dont get one.

I don't see what's wrong with this, to be honest. It certainly isn't on the same level as bestiality. What, in your mind, is so terrible about marrying a lamp? Doesn't a lamp deserve love?

In all seriousness, this is the same as marrying an animal or a child. An animal cannot sign a document, and neither can a child. Marriage in the legal world is a legal partnership. Can an inanimate object sign a document? Does an inanimate object pay taxes? There's a difference between marrying another adult and marrying a blow-up doll, and if you don't see the difference between the two, I suggest you see a doctor. I doubt being unable to differentiate between people and objects is indicative of a stable mind.

Dont take away these benefits from me just because you think they are wrong.

There is no secular reason to bar homosexual couples from the same legal benefits that heterosexual couples enjoy. Thus far, I have not seen a single person here provide a secular reason.

If I said that there was nothing wrong with slavery, incest, and marrying inanimate objects, what would you appeal to to say that you are right and I am wrong?[COLOR="Silver"]

Slavery takes freedom away from an individual, and dehumanizes that individual by making that individual property. Incest can lead to genetic disorders among the children that occurs because of it. And with the last one, I suppose it depends what you mean by "marry" and "wrong". I mean, if some guy wants to say his blow-up doll is his wife, well... whatever shakes his boat, I suppose. Doesn't hurt me. But if he's trying to get legalized marriage documents, we're running into a problem because that blow-up doll, as mentioned above, cannot sign documents or pay taxes, etc., etc.

()()()

Thank you, thank you, and THANK you! I get so sick and tired of hearing the argument "If you don't like gay marriage don't get one! But don't take away my right!" That's lovely. Now going on that thought process, let's not dare try and stop Iran and North Korea from having nuclear weapons because they have a right.

I agree. America is not the international peacekeeper country. What right does one sovereign nation have to take away the weaponry of another? They do have a right to have those weapons, just like we do.

Now, is this a danger? In theory, but let's look at the facts. For one thing, as far as North Korea, recent events have shown that they can't launch missiles. Their recent attempt was a very public, very embarrassing failure. And with both, there's the case of Mutually Assured Destruction: If they launch on America or our allies, America or our allies will launch back.

Of course, all this is meaningless because, no, as a sovereign nation we cannot take weapons away from another just because we have bad relations with them, or because they could do this or might do that.

We'll allow fathers to marry there daughters and mothers to marry there sons because they want to. Why stop there? Let's allow old men and women to marry teenagers because they're in love. After all, they love each other and they want to right? Open every courthouse in the nation and let people marry rocks and puppies and inflatable dolls because they're in love and they should have a right to marry who or what they love right?

Haley, have you ever heard of the Slippery Slope Fallacy? If you haven't, look at that paragraph.

That's a Slippery Slope Fallacy. It's illogical. There are reasons those things are illegal. Allowing two adults of the same gender to marry would not suddenly make every reason for not allowing teenagers to wed adults invalid.

I get tired of people making it sound like Christians just don't like it, as if they have no basis. It's an abomination in the eyes of God.

See, that means nothing to me. I'm not religious, at least not the same way as you. Your religious reasons have no hold on me, so to me, no, you don't have a logical basis for this.

It's wrong. It's the equivalent to pedophilia, incest, necrophilia, bestiality, and other unacceptable relationships or sex acts.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, Haley. You comparing me, my family, my friends, and millions of other people you don't even know to child molesters (the lowest of the low) because they're not straight is not only wrong, it's also insulting, horrific and incredibly offensive. Please stop now.

I get it. You have no respect for me or anyone like me. But at least pretend you give a crap about other people's feelings

Be it a secular government or not, the nation is still influenced by religion. And because of that, many people in and out of the government hold to homosexuality being a perversion of how God set up sex and relationships to work.

Which means nothing because this is a secular nation, and therefore religion has no place in its lawmaking. If this was a Christian theocracy, or a Christian anything, then what the Bible says would be connected to our lawmaking. But it's not.

It's not just Christians saying it's icky. It's a belief that looks at nature and sees that most people want to be with one person of the opposite sex. That's the norm. That's accepted as healthy and the correct way to have a relationship, marriage, and sex. People (even non religious) see big problems in adults having sex with children, people having sex with family members, with corpses, with animals, with objects, and with people of the same sex.

Prove it. Prove that droves of people that aren't religious are saying that homosexuality is the same as raping a child or molesting a puppy.

Also, since I've heard the "it's found among the animals" argument before, I'd like to say that personally, I don't care if 2 male turtles go at each other. Or 2 female lions. Or 2 same sex monkeys or fish or birds or bugs or anything else. 2 big differences between us and animals, God created us above the animals and God gave us morals and standards. He didn't tell the turtles not to have homosexual sex. He told humans that it made him sick to see people have homosexual sex because that's not how he meant it to go. He didn't tell the lions not to get same sex marriage. He told humans that marriage is to be between one man and one woman. There are A LOT of things that we see in nature that are unacceptable for humans to do.

Birds push there babies out of nests in hopes that they won't land on there heads. In the human world, that's child abuse. Lions kill each other over a piece of meat. In human society, that's murder. Most animals have sex with a random partner every year and a female animal has off springs by several different mates. In human life the man and woman would both be labeled sexually promiscuous. And you can bet that if a mother threw her child out to fend for itself and then used the argument that "Birds do it so it's natural" the only thing saving her from jail would be an insanity plea. Just because it's found in the animals, doesn't mean it's ok for humans to do it too.

The "It's found in the animal kingdom" argument is not an argument for people to be gay. It's a refutation that homosexuality is unnatural. As it occurs in the animal kingdom, it is therefore natural. Unnatural things do not occur in nature; things like polyester blends or air conditioning or cars. Homosexuality occurs in nature, and is therefore natural. That's all that statement means. It's not saying that it's okay, nor is it saying it's wrong. It's simply saying that it is.

So yeah, for anyone else who wants to use the "Don't like it, don't do it" and "It's found in the animals" arguments, they are getting really old.

Your "God says so" and "If we let homosexuals marry, they'll want to marry goats!!!11!1!" arguments are all quite old as well, and also quite fallacious. The crow calls the raven black.

[Chris]

More than happy to go over there and give you some support if you'd like Morgaine.

[Godlesspanther2]

I checked it out. I will not post there. It's a Christian teen forum. I'm not close to being in either category.

Haley is only 18 years old., knowing that she is that young makes me think that there is hope for her. Many of the kids, even home-schooled totally programmed robots, can start to question when they are in their 20s.

From what I did read on that forum, it appears that Haley is one of the worst kids on there. Most of them will not venture very far beyond repeating the same dogshit they have been trained to spout. If they start to drift into uncharted territory -- just quote the bible -- that's always safe. Haley, it appears, comes fro a psycho-fundie-from-hell background. If this kid goes to college, she is going right to Liberty, Bob Jones, or some fucked up place like that.

Morgaine, good luck with these people. It's really hard to get past the armor they have built up. They are always going to wrap themselves in god or the bible whenever they feel vulnerable. Anything outside the vapid dogma makes them feel vulnerable.

If you can get through to one or teo of them -- I would be impressed.

It would work better if you could get one of them to come to this forum. They never do.

[vms]

It would work better if you could get one of them to come to this forum. They never do.

Xians don't come here and register but we do have an increasing no. of Guests lurking in our forums. Nowadays we average around 20 Guests in our forums at any one time.

[Godlesspanther2]

There are some Christians who are willing to have a rational debate or discussion. On Youtube there is Rational Roundtable and Together for Peace -- those two are good at it.

You will notice that the ultra-fundie Haley types would never attempt a real discussion. For one, they can't, when someone is so immersed in the dogma they have such a limited view of things it makes discussion impossible. Then there is the fear factor. These people are trained to be terrified of anything that is outside their narrow little pseudo-world.

Haley had posted that she refuses to participate in Halloween, read Harry Potter, and even Lord of the Rings (evidently unaware that Tolkein was a Christian.)

Another site of fear-drenched loonies is Rapture Ready. People obsessed with Jesus coming to take them away at any moment. They completely limit themselves to things that reinforce that delusion and simply cannot, will not allow themselves exposure to anything that suggests that their fantasy is simply not going to happen.

There are a few holy rollers who post on Ex-christian.net -- I have no idea what their motive is.

People are weird.

[Azou]

Honestly, the odds of the fundies shedding their faith in the teens is pretty unlikely. The parents serve as watchdogs and gatekeepers from the outside world, and will provide plenty of both positive and negative reinforcement of the beliefs.

There's a reason there's more railing against "liberal colleges" than high schools. It's because mommy and daddy aren't there to protect their baby from this thing called "reality."