Dan: I am established as true

[MaxFF]

All the times presuppositionalists claim to be certain and ask how everyone else can be certain, I didn't see anyone ask what definition of certain they are using. I mean not a single definition means what he wants it to mean in this situation, unfortunately so far he will not even accept the meaning of his own definitions that he chose and is still pretending it means something other than what his own definitions say it means. It can be found deep in the bowels of the comments in this post, but you'll probably never find it so I'll just copy the relevant stuff here.

I simply challenged Dan to name one thing he is certain of and pick any definitions of certain he likes. His response:

I am certain God exists

1.free from doubt or reservation; confident; sure: I am certain he will come.
4.established as true or sure; unquestionable; indisputable: It is certain that he tried.
5.fixed; agreed upon; settled: on a certain day; for a certain amount.
7.that may be depended on; trustworthy; unfailing; reliable: His aim was certain.
Idiom
11.for certain, without a doubt; surely: I know for certain that I have seen that face before.

11. is two words, and you didn't say "for certain" you just certain, so we will stick with definitions 1, 4, 5, and 7.

1. I am certain under this definition means you are without doubt and you are confident. That doesn't mean anything is true. If anyone else used this definition you would accuse them of having a feeling of certainty and not actual certainty.

4. under this definition of true I am certain means "I am established as true." or to use the fully expanded version, "I am established as true, God exists." this sentence doesn't mean God exists is true, it means you are true because you have described yourself as certain.

5. "I am fixed, agreed upon, settled; God exists." Well I'm not exactly sure what it means for you to be settled or fixed but it says nothing at all about God exists being agreed upon or settled.

7. "I am that may be depended on; trustworthy unfailing." I would dispute the fact that you are trustworthy, but even if you are true it doesn't mean that God exists. Even if you are trustworthy you could be mistaken.

An Atheist accidentally pointed out a valid point,

Those should be `We know God exists' and 'We are certain God exists'

Instead of "I know God exists." and "I am certain God exists"

1. We are confident God exists. Still doesn't mean its true.

4. We are established as true, God exists. It means "we" is true, but it doesn't mean God exists is true.

5. We are fixed agreed upon settled God exists. So whoever this "we is agrees God exists. Doesn't make it true, just means some group of people agreed that it is.

7. We are dependent, trustworthy; God exists. Again even if we accept that this "we" is trustworthy, they could still be mistaken, it doesn't mean God exists is true.

1. free from doubt or reservation; confident; sure: I am certain he will come.

>>I am certain under this definition means you are without doubt and you are confident.

Are you certain about that? Are you free from doubt or reservation? Confident? Sure? If so, how?

That aside, moving on.

>>If anyone else used this definition you would accuse them of having a feeling of certainty and not actual certainty.

How can someone be "free from doubt or reservation; confident; sure:" for something that is not true? We call that self denial, something Atheists are very familiar with.

>>"I am established as true." or to use the fully expanded version, "I am established as true, God exists." this sentence doesn't mean God exists is true, it means you are true because you have described yourself as certain.

No, it means what you're certain about is "established as true" so the sentence is 'It is established as true' that God exists.

>>but it says nothing at all about God exists being agreed upon or settled.

What is the "it" in this sentence? It is established and agreed upon and settled that God exists.

>>I would dispute the fact that you are trustworthy, but even if you are true it doesn't mean that God exists.

It is not about us dude. It is about the information that we're certain about. Truth is truth even if Ten Bundy or Hitler is speaking it. (Wait, did I compare myself to those two? No. Moving on)

The information that we are certain about, God existing, may be depended on; trustworthy; unfailing; reliable.

1. definition number 1 is what you call a feeling of certainty. I am confident my computer will turn on when I press the power button, so by definition 1 it is certain even if it isn't true.

2.The definition says "something which is established as true" what is certain in that sentence? "We" you did not say anything else was certain, you said "we are certain." we are established as true is the meaning. Trying to take an adjective describing "we" and apply it to something else doesn't make any sense. Does "I am tired of spam emails" mean the emails are tired?

5. "We are agreed upon God exists." People agree to all sorts of things that doesn't make it true. Muslims agree that Muhammad is a prophet of God. is it true because a group of people agreed to it? If not then this definition does not mean its true.

7. According to this definition it means you are trustworthy. It doesn't mean you are correct.

I see the problem here. You are describing yourself as certain, "We are certain," and you are pretending certain describes something else. You say that certain means true, so the information is true. You didn't say the information was certain you said we are certain. You can only apply the description t we, not the information. Unless you think I am tired of spam emails means the emails are tired you will have to admit that certain describes nothing but we in that sentence.

I guess I shouldn't expect him to give up on his only arguing tactic even if his own selected definitions don't mean what he wants.

[Chris]

D.A.N. wrote:
An Atheist accidentally pointed out a valid point,

Those should be `We know God exists' and 'We are certain God exists'

Instead of "I know God exists." and "I am certain God exists"

Well isn't that the most ingracious acceptance of a point you've ever read?

As to your point Max I don't know why Dan doesn't just alter his statement to read "It is certain that God exists".
Well...yes I do. Dan would have to admit that his previous statement was wrong.

[MaxFF]

D.A.N. wrote:
An Atheist accidentally pointed out a valid point,

Those should be `We know God exists' and 'We are certain God exists'

Instead of "I know God exists." and "I am certain God exists"

Well isn't that the most ingracious acceptance of a point you've ever read?

Actually when I read that I was pretty happy. Even if he is being a jerk at least he would acknowledge that he was wrong. Unfortunately as you can see in the next post by Dan he is rejecting his own definitions of certain, because none of them really mean what he wants it to mean. And he is continuing to do it.

Really the "are you certain" is the entire argument of presupositional apologetics. Simply asking them for their desired definition and it will become obvious that none of them mean what they want it to mean. The question "are you certain" is meant to put people on the defensive, and asking them for a definition puts them on the defensive. Eventually they will either concede that being certain of something doesn't mean it is true, or they will reject their own definitions. There isn't a single definition in the dictionary that makes, "are you certain" mean what they want it to mean.

[MaxFF]

As to your other point there is a reason Dan can't say "it is certain" rather than "I am certain." The claim is that no one can know anything unless they are certain. According to presupposition he must say, "I am certain" or according to his own argument he knows nothing.

[zilch]

The basic problem with Dan's position, and presuppositionalism in general, is exactly this spurious correlation between "certain" and "true". He seems to think that if he's certain of something, that must mean it's true. Unfortunately, it's quite possible to be certain of something and simply be wrong.

[BaldySlaphead]

Certainty vs Truth:

General John Sedgwick, May 8th, 1864 - "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance."

It goes without saying that these were his last words before he was shot in the head and killed.

[Milo]

Certainty vs Truth:

General John Sedgwick, May 8th, 1864 - "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance."

It goes without saying that these were his last words before he was shot in the head and killed.

General John Sedgwick is an uncle several times removed in our family.

[Whateverman]

General John Sedgwick is an uncle several times removed in our family.

Baldy, you insensitive bastard...

[zilch]

General John Sedgwick is an uncle several times removed in our family.

Baldy, you insensitive bastard...

Whaddya expect from a limey?

[Milo]

It was very insensitive of you to bring up great great great great great great Uncle Sedgwick's death like that. Exploiting his death to make your point with no regard to the feelings of others is no way to act.
sniff....sniff......