I simply challenged Dan to name one thing he is certain of and pick any definitions of certain he likes. His response:
D.A.N. wrote:I am certain God exists
1.free from doubt or reservation; confident; sure: I am certain he will come.
4.established as true or sure; unquestionable; indisputable: It is certain that he tried.
5.fixed; agreed upon; settled: on a certain day; for a certain amount.
7.that may be depended on; trustworthy; unfailing; reliable: His aim was certain.
11.for certain, without a doubt; surely: I know for certain that I have seen that face before.
MaxFF wrote:11. is two words, and you didn't say "for certain" you just certain, so we will stick with definitions 1, 4, 5, and 7.
1. I am certain under this definition means you are without doubt and you are confident. That doesn't mean anything is true. If anyone else used this definition you would accuse them of having a feeling of certainty and not actual certainty.
4. under this definition of true I am certain means "I am established as true." or to use the fully expanded version, "I am established as true, God exists." this sentence doesn't mean God exists is true, it means you are true because you have described yourself as certain.
5. "I am fixed, agreed upon, settled; God exists." Well I'm not exactly sure what it means for you to be settled or fixed but it says nothing at all about God exists being agreed upon or settled.
7. "I am that may be depended on; trustworthy unfailing." I would dispute the fact that you are trustworthy, but even if you are true it doesn't mean that God exists. Even if you are trustworthy you could be mistaken.
D.A.N. wrote:An Atheist accidentally pointed out a valid point,
Those should be `We know God exists' and 'We are certain God exists'
Instead of "I know God exists." and "I am certain God exists"
MaxFF wrote:1. We are confident God exists. Still doesn't mean its true.
4. We are established as true, God exists. It means "we" is true, but it doesn't mean God exists is true.
5. We are fixed agreed upon settled God exists. So whoever this "we is agrees God exists. Doesn't make it true, just means some group of people agreed that it is.
7. We are dependent, trustworthy; God exists. Again even if we accept that this "we" is trustworthy, they could still be mistaken, it doesn't mean God exists is true.
D.AN. wrote:1. free from doubt or reservation; confident; sure: I am certain he will come.
>>I am certain under this definition means you are without doubt and you are confident.
Are you certain about that? Are you free from doubt or reservation? Confident? Sure? If so, how?
That aside, moving on.
>>If anyone else used this definition you would accuse them of having a feeling of certainty and not actual certainty.
How can someone be "free from doubt or reservation; confident; sure:" for something that is not true? We call that self denial, something Atheists are very familiar with.
>>"I am established as true." or to use the fully expanded version, "I am established as true, God exists." this sentence doesn't mean God exists is true, it means you are true because you have described yourself as certain.
No, it means what you're certain about is "established as true" so the sentence is 'It is established as true' that God exists.
>>but it says nothing at all about God exists being agreed upon or settled.
What is the "it" in this sentence? It is established and agreed upon and settled that God exists.
>>I would dispute the fact that you are trustworthy, but even if you are true it doesn't mean that God exists.
It is not about us dude. It is about the information that we're certain about. Truth is truth even if Ten Bundy or Hitler is speaking it. (Wait, did I compare myself to those two? No. Moving on)
The information that we are certain about, God existing, may be depended on; trustworthy; unfailing; reliable.
MaxFF wrote:1. definition number 1 is what you call a feeling of certainty. I am confident my computer will turn on when I press the power button, so by definition 1 it is certain even if it isn't true.
2.The definition says "something which is established as true" what is certain in that sentence? "We" you did not say anything else was certain, you said "we are certain." we are established as true is the meaning. Trying to take an adjective describing "we" and apply it to something else doesn't make any sense. Does "I am tired of spam emails" mean the emails are tired?
5. "We are agreed upon God exists." People agree to all sorts of things that doesn't make it true. Muslims agree that Muhammad is a prophet of God. is it true because a group of people agreed to it? If not then this definition does not mean its true.
7. According to this definition it means you are trustworthy. It doesn't mean you are correct.
I see the problem here. You are describing yourself as certain, "We are certain," and you are pretending certain describes something else. You say that certain means true, so the information is true. You didn't say the information was certain you said we are certain. You can only apply the description t we, not the information. Unless you think I am tired of spam emails means the emails are tired you will have to admit that certain describes nothing but we in that sentence.
I guess I shouldn't expect him to give up on his only arguing tactic even if his own selected definitions don't mean what he wants.